[Jukebox-list] Styrene/ Playing 45's with 78 stylus?!

[Dicecco, Michael]

Hi Kyle, 

I just had to comment about you playing 45's with a 78 stylus. I
personally don't think this is a good idea. The 78 stylus is three times
the size, and yes it will ride higher up in the groove. However, since
it is much larger, it cannot accurately track the high frequency
undulations of the record. The result is damage to the groove, with
resulting distortion (the high frequencies are shredded off). If you
think about it, a stylus three times the size of the groove in the
record is bound to do damage: it's just not small enough to track the
groove made by the cutting head. It's like using a severely worn out
needle. 
 
I have a 12" 45rpm single by INXS and accidently once played it on my
Dual turntable with a 78rpm stylus at 3 grams. I noticed severe
distortion immediately, and part way through the record removed the arm.
It was possible to see a different reflection of light in the grooves
exactly where I had lifted the arm off (and this was only after ONE
play). Try the same test on a new record that's not been previously
played with a 78 stylus...you'll see the marks left. If it's leaving
this kind of visible mark, it must be doing damage. 

Another thought: as a collector of all kinds of 78's I often come across
records that are very well worn towards the end. The reason for this is
that the steel needles which were used originally would often wear out
too much towards the end of the record. By this point, the tip was too
wide to properly fit the groove, and damage was done. You're doing the
same thing to all your 45's!

Try flipping the needle over to microgroove, and I'm sure you'll
immediately notice a great improvement in the sound (on a record that's
in good shape).

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: jukebox-list-bounces at lists.netlojix.com
[mailto:jukebox-list-bounces at lists.netlojix.com] On Behalf Of Mechanical
Music of S.F.
Sent: 2007, October, 02 4:17 PM
To: jukebox-list at lists.netlojix.com
Subject: [Jukebox-list] Re: How to clean those records?/ Styrene


Since this comes up again and again, I'.ll share some tips for styrene
records with you all and why they wear so badly these days.

For even cheapie ceramic cartridges, we used to have USA made needles
that were polished to a nice slightly dome shaped taper.  Now all the
cheapie needles are made overseas and are polished to a cone shaped tip
with flat sides.  The resilient vinyl records stand up to this pretty
well, the plastic ones don't, and the needle simply carves up the sides
of the grooves.
Since most of the records around the world are not terribly affected, it
goes on.  However, the USA-only plastic records suffer.

The jukes that use the regular Shure Hi-Fi cartridges are lucky, because
you can find nice quality genuine Shure needles for them. (Discount
generic replacements will chew up plastic 45s)

Some suggestions.  Tri-Flow  lubricant with P.T.F.E. (I think it's
Teflon).
See it here:
http://www.mrpcclean.co.uk/catalog/images/tri%20flow.jpg
Most USA ACE hardware stores carry it and it's under $4 a bottle. 
Clean your records, then put a drop of this between your thumb and
forefinger.  Completely wipe down both sides of your plastic records
with the stuff and work it in well.  Then wipe with a lint free cloth to
remove any excess.
This will greatly extend the life of your styrene records.  You may get
a bit of dust on your needle for a few plays, but the wet part
eventually dries and you're left with a long lasting Teflon coat of
protection.

On my Wurlitzer 3200 with Sonotone cartridge, I buy up flip needles that
have a 78 side.  I have the juke set to about 5 grams or so and use the
78 side.  I pick up more surface noise this way since the tip is riding
much closer to the top of the groove, but at least I'm not grinding out
my good records.  I treat the styrene ones here, too, just as an extra
measure.   Most of my records are in good condition so the additional
surface noise isn't really a problem.  After scores of plays, I can take
out the record, put it on my good turntable, and they still sound like
new since that part of the groove further down isn't seeing any action.
The 78 needles are synthetic sapphire, and since we use the juke daily
in the office, I have to change it about every 6 months.
I sacrifice a tiny bit of fidelity, but knock on wood, it works.

For Seeburg yellow wedge, I don't know where he's getting them, but Bill
Bickers sells replacements that don't chew up plastic records, bless
their souls.  Good original new Seeburg needles are scarce.  Very
scarce.

No matter what you paid for them, ANY aftermarket Seeburg "T" needles
will chew plastic, so treat with Tri-Flow.

With other jukes, you have to get creative.  In my AMI G120 (GE
cartridge), I use the 1 mil needles and remove the rubber supports in
each assembly.  They are usually dried out anyway.  They were there not
for support, but for dampening.  With them removed, you do get some up
and down/vertical compliance.  Sometimes you get a bit of , well, almost
an echo,  since the dampening is gone, but it's a small price to pay to
play stereo and styrene records safely.  My G120 tracks easily at about
4-5 grams.  There is no need to  have it set to the 10 that was
recommended.  That's insane, but coming off the 78 RPM era, must have
seemed really light.

If anyone has another situation, let me know.  I've studied the dynamics
of the stylus/record relationship for 25 years and am very good at
finding solutions to record wear problems.

Kyle ~
Mechanical Music of San Francisco
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